V.A.L.U.E. rules, now taking feedback

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m6Vz4fKDaYE7Drwiqal0xNmoh9_wTnOZg0gxDx8gH3U/edit?usp=sharing

this document has the rules the couple of DMs that were at the meetup ended up deciding on, there is still a couple of points not fully fleshed out, but we’re now taking feedback

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i’ve added a table with gold/tcp if you create a character at a higher level, so nobody needs to do that math themselves, and there is less confusion about the math :slight_smile:

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“If a magic item is found during a session 1 Player gets to keep the Item, while it gets unlocked for the whole RPGVienna community.”

I think this rules needs some more backup for the cases if two or more characters like to have the item - how will be a conflict dissolves else this rule has to be the potential for getting a real bummer - creating conflicts and take at least for me a lot of the fun out of it. I think in the old rules there where a sentence like - in case of a conflict this should be solved by a random process (e.g. rolling dices) Still this could lead to characters (because they got lucky) which are much more powerful than other chars because they process much more magic items than the other players.

And do i see it right now there can be flying chars with starting level 1?

Just some first thoughts

I think the veto on aarakokra was probably a good one. I would not do so in a campaign because then I could plan for it. In a game where I have no idea what is going to be sitting down at the table across from me it is particularly unnerving that they might bypass all the level problems.

In past versions, players with the fewest magic items got first say

Did the veto already pass as I cant find where it says that you cant pick arrakokra. Wouldn’t point buy characters just be stronger in general? Haven’t yet done the math but still curious about the decision

Aarakokra haven’t ever been allowed in al- the veto I was referring to. And varient tiefling with wings is only available at l5 in s9

Point buy has always been allowed, it is just not particularly publicized.

So the magic item limit is out, too, right? As before we had TCP, I don’t think anyone has an abundance of magical gear anyway, but it will come up in T1 soon, and not getting three almost automatically at T2 also changes things (but likely for the better overall, even if it means our current T2 characters will be underpowered for the first few sessions compared to AL9-average)

Also I am assuming now that background subclasses races and spells are allowed from Guildmasters guide to ravnica and the upcoming Eberrron book. I am asking this as some races and backgrounds do not exist in fearun

Correct, Eberron and Ravnica content is included, as well as all future published content from non-Forgotten Realm books.

Regarding DM rewards: If a DM uses the reward does he gain all other associated features of a level up (TCP, Gold) If so, then the second part regarding only getting TCP is moot, as leveling gives you the same amount of TCP.

Regarding TCP: Just so all are clear: there is no TCP limit for characters. A character gains 4 TCP and gold at the end of EVERY session, whether they level or not.

I’ll sit down tomorrow and rewrite the Doc into neuttal language and try to clear up any unclear phrasing.

dmreward for only tcp is not entirely moot, would allow to get more tcp at a lower level (just as if a player would choose not to take level progression)

What I mean is that DM would choose level up reward, gain all regular rewards for playing a session, choose not to level character, like other players can. Basically, word it into one reward instead of having 2.

yeah that probably could be done, but the way it’s written atm the level up reward is not a mix and match thing :smiley:

Sorry just coming back the flying point. All AL adventures are created with the preconditions that there are no flying chars (at least at t1 in S9, in t1-4 for S1-8) can this not create some misbalance if there are now T1 flying chars?

Here is my take. I am presuming the what is on the VALUE sheet will be amended and everything else is according the season 9? Please do correct me.

  1. Flying characters - i would stick with official Season 9, i.e. disallowed until Lv 5. For OP issues and clear advantages it creates in early games. Yes, you can play an Aarakora but your wings are not strong enough until lv 5.
    Note: uncommon races can and may be mistreated depending on the setting and adventure itself, and it is fair to warn the newer players.
  2. Standard Array - would honestly advise sticking to the standard array in the PHB. Balancing PC options and Monsters/NPC’s is a big part of 5e. There are already so many races available, some being overpowering, that with the changes in magical items accessibility and possession, each PC will have a variety of power options.
    Afterall we are role playing and not war crafting, no?
  3. UA class options - a great idea, even though not so much for the new player, but let’s vote wisely. I previously played the Revised Ranger and Theurgist classes (till lvls 10 and 15 )and can say that both are overpowered (OP). IMO revised classes of official classes should be disallowed. I would say that only classes which do not exist be considered (i.e. the Psionic), and possibly a few interesting sub-classes.
  4. Magic items - the player that finds an item gets to keep it or give it to another member of the adventuring party who has better use of that item (on principle of collegiality) … Unlocked items should be noted on a list and made available for purchase for players of corresponding tiers or players with enough gold. Story specific items and legendary items should not be available for purchase, but should be noted on the list of found items (more as evidence to avoid cheating). All unlocked items should be priced equally according to rarity.

In summary. Allowing players to use all hardcover books is great. Everything else in addition from that, such as UA stuff and changing stat options opens space for overpowered PC’s and an unbalanced game. Similar could be said of the proposed magical items rule, because it opens space for cheating (who keeps track of all the non-attunement magical items a PC can have),. Unlocking all found magic for everyone helps mitigate that, but still it very much depends on a player’s discretion.

Again IMO, just doing the following is an overall improvement:

  • removing the restriction on hardcore books,
  • increasing the number of magical items a PC can have (but still limiting it) and,
  • unlocking all items found (except story specific and legendary)

I’m not in favor of the who find it keeps it rule, would always mean an advantage for louder players because they will always say first that they search the room or body :wink:

Just another issue: Will there a way to convert season 8/9 chars into V.A.L.U.E or has everybody to start over again?

#1 Flying Characters: Yeah, that does sound reasonable, as Variant Winged Tiefling is a thing I know I will be playing xD

#2 The Point Buy we set up is still Standard Array. All we did was expand the bottom/top caps, so you still use the same amount of points as Point buy. We did plan for Races such as Kobold and Orc (Not half) that get -2 to Str and Int respectively. Thus even 6 Base -2 Racial Modifer Orc will still have 4 Int and be sentient. The same is set for starting, so that 17 Base +2 Racial will still cap at 19 starting and only lvl 4 will give a player their first Nat 20 Ability. Remeber, 7 and 6 only give 1 point each, while 15+ costs 3 points each. One does need to take SIGNIFICANT negatives to get that 16/17 in a stat.

#3 Revised Ranger will be a no I think because of how all UA Sub Classes of the Ranger only interact with the PHB Ranger and no the UA Ranger. The Mystic classes has already been deemed a very clear NO from multiple DMs. An experienced player can break the game with Pure PHB, UA does NOT break the game nor is it OP. What we look to curb is players playing characters that are good at too many things. No Rogue wants to play with a Monk Warforged with Expertise in Thieves Tools who does all the sneaking, lockpicking and basically frontline Rogue. Our goal is that play is FUN, so that a hardcore min/maxer and the newb can sit at the same table, and both feel impactful and important to the session and the story.
#4 When a party finds a magical item, people who want the item can discuss who gets it, but the DM does have the right to award the item if there is no consensus (whether by dice roll or awarding the item to the player with the least amount of magic items)

We do plan to balance players: not by restricting the players mechanically, but by educating and teaching them game etiquette. We trust our players to not cheat and players who do cheat will be restricted and/or removed if they are not remedial.

Magic items would be permanently distributed at the end of the session, DM will of course be obliged to assist in mediating. Despite what the PLAYER may want, the CHARACTERs are obliged to ALWAYS put the party first, otherwise the Player may be restricted (as per Season 9 AL Rules)

Thus magic items should be rewarded to Characters with #1 Most Benefit and #2 With Least Amount of Magic Items.

Yes, it is easy to convert to VALUE, just be sure to keep track of Sessions played. I have this weekend off and plan on actually doing VALUE related stuff :stuck_out_tongue:

Hi Rayce,

  1. Maxing out a stat on lvl 4 is rather a big deal in itself. It wouldn’t normally happen until level 8 or higher levels in some other cases. I believe that this was not the intention of standard array in PHB, nor was it to max out a stat and then focus on feats. All I see is lower dump stats (and earlier maxed out key stat(s)) which unfortunately hardly have effect on players actions/decisions in shorter AL games. IMO this is great for players who like power play.
    Kobolds, Orc’s - great - while it is fun watching one walk through a town in Fauerun, even more so than Duergar, i believe that many players will focus on a bunch of other cooler races - Shadar’kai, Fallen Aasimar, Feywild elves, Genasi etc.and some have pretty cool racial powers. Take that and factor in the VALUE array.
    There will also be magical items available earlier which was previously not the case, magical armors and such. Players also do not have to find them like in regular adventures, but will be able to buy them much earlier from the evergreen and unlocked items lists… which is fine.
    Also the revenant feat/revenant blade will also be available… but just imagine, for example, how all this factors with Lvl 4 maxed out dex melee class.
    Sorry man, the kobolds and orcs argument doesn’t do it for me.

  2. Believe you described the problem in itself. Some DM’s rule this way and that way and over the years a lot UA stuff has accumulated, some does break the game especially when two and more UA OP classes get together - it happened in our group over the last years… Anyways, there will be a vote and hopefully some fun classes will be introduced, and others not.

  3. That’s fine…

I wasn’t able to make it to the meeting, but I am glad that this was posted for public review and feedback. If there is another one, will definitely try to make it. I hope these comments will be considered for the betterment of the game, and not a critique of work done.
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Btw, I do like most of the suggestions, and appreciate your work and the work of everyone involved…

Hey Atoh-nym,

#2 18 and 20 really dont make much of a difference statistically, its mostly about players having the satisfaction of getting that 20, or being able to more freely take feats without having to try to balance feats and ASI to strictly. Lower dumpstats are a great way to RP. Having higher base Ability Scores also allows for suboptimal Races.
As mentioned before, we arent planning on restricting mechanics to prevent powergaming, but teaching our players to be reasonable with their powergaming.
#3 As point #2, we dont plan on restricting players just because the possibility of powergaming exists. There are UA options that are themselves unreasonable or overstep their class bounds.