Gather here, ye fearless edition warriors

Per Auburney’s suggestion, rather than clutter up introduction threads with this sort of thing (and give newcomers the impression that we’re even farther round the bend than we actually are), perhaps it would be best to have a separate thread for good-natured edition banter and the like. So gather round, ye mighty edition warriors! I’ll even provide you with a first target* to tar and feather:

Editions of D&D are just like the Star Wars movies.

Star Wars/OD&D: A brilliant blast of creativity that gave wings to a million imaginations.

The Empire Strikes Back/AD&D: Everything that made people fall in love with the first one, and more. The magnum opus.

Return of the Jedi/2nd Edition: Cuddlier than the first two (ewoks in, assassins out), but still very solid.

The Phantom Menace/3rd Edition: Jar Jar. Oops, sorry. Getting carried away. Um, let’s go with: “The franchise takes aim at a new generation.” There, that’s neutral, isn’t it?

Whatever the Next One Was Called/3.5: Wait, didn’t we just see all this?

Whatever the One After That Was Called/4th Edition: Tensionwise, encounter balance is the equivalent of everybody already knowing how the movie ends.

The Upcoming One/D&D Next: After everybody involved says all the right things in development, there’s reason to be cautiously optimistic. A new hope?

So have at it, folks. And don’t forget to mention system mastery and GNS theory in your posts!

  • Just be sure not to take this list too seriously.

What is ‘full Simulationism mode’?
What is ‘full Gamism mode’?
For me the former would be a 1:1 (or at least very close) imitation of reality.
The latter differs from game to game, situation to situation, characters to characters. It’s not just the P&P version of a ‘skip’ button for me.
And then there is the ‘full narrative mode’ where - for me - dice rolling and the like would be completely excluded.

I doubt that you will find a system that supports either of those 3.

In addition:
I really don’t like sentences that start with variations of “the fact remains…” or “fact is…” because it almost never turns out to be true.
A fact is something that cannot be interpreted differently. In this case it can. As you can see our definitions are already different and we are just 2 people.
I think you can use 3.finder in all three versions but it highly depends on your definition of those three things.

EDIT: Yeah saw -H-'s post too late. But this was my last post on the topic anyway.

[quote]What is ‘full Simulationism mode’?
What is ‘full Gamism mode’?[/quote]
I thought I just (sort of) explained that? :sunglasses:

I admit that the “full” is purely hypothetical in these sentences though, since no RPG (regardless of whether you’re talking about it in theory or about actual play) will ever be 100% either one of these Playstyles, to the full exclusion of the other two.
Instead (and I won’t say it’s a fact, but I still think it might be easy for all to agree upon this), all roleplay always contains elements of each of these GNS approaches. There is always a fictional world of some sort that gets simulated or evoked. There is always some sort of competition or challenge going on. And there are always elements of storytelling happening.

So yeah, the better way to put this might have been to say “Simulation-focussed” or “Gamist-heavy”, instead of “full [whatever]”.

But that wasn’t really your point, was it? :slight_smile:

That’s an overly narrow definition. Simulationism does not strictly have to be about reality (the actually real reality, the one we live in when we don’t RP).
Much rather, Simulationism is meant to be understood as that thing that happens as soon as you say “imagine there is a world where things are pretty similar to our medieval times - except there are monsters, and magic, and dragons, and elves… how would things be in that world…”

That’s why I like to use “verisimilitude” instead of “realism”. With a few syllables less, one could also say “believability”. Oh wait, no - that has exactly as many syllables… Well, nevermind :wink:

Sim (to use the shortened version because I’m getting tired of typing the whole term) is first and foremmost about “how would that really be”, you know, with elves and magic and monsters.

In its hardcore form, Sim doesn’t care about story, except in as far that such “story” emerges (more or less coincidentally) from events that are happening in the fictional world. But it is far more important that these events are likely to happen, and don’t hurt the premisses of the fictional world. NO sudden appearances of battle mechs when we are playing a Harry Potter style campaign.

Dramatic quality of an emerging story is of no concern to the hardcore Simulationist - because whatever happens, happens. If it coincides to be dramatically valuable, good. If not, that’s how “it would be” in that fictional world, shrug.

Sim is why we have random tables in RPGs.

In its hardcore form, Sim also doesn’t care about the Gamist’s favourite pastimes, competition and challenge. If “it is reasonable or realistic” that a 3rd level party would encounter an elder black dragon if they decide to go to a certain area in the Cursed Swamps of Doom… then that would just be what happens, under a hardcore Sim standpoint.

Sim knows no “high level areas” or the like. It also isn’t interested in level-up, party-balance, or “fair” combat rules - except in as far as these convey the much sought after realism (or verisimiltude), and further the players’ “immersion” into the setting.

Yeah, setting is very important in Sim.

I must confess I have no idea what you mean by this.

My point was that “if it doesn’t constitute a worthwhile challenge, then it has no place in my game”, which would be the hardcore Gamist standpoint.

Gamists sometimes tend to hate “fighting trashmobs”, because they wanna get to the “real challenging stuff” asap. While Simulationists would insist however, that “it would only be reasonable / realistic that along the way you might encounter a few opponents who are really really weak, and/or a few that are coincidentally too hard to beat for your party. That’s just life (in this fictional world), suck it up”.
For them, the world (and its fictional integrity) comes first.

For the Gamist, his/her pleasure in confronting obstacles that are satisfying to solve, overcome, or defeat comes first. Setting is important, yes, but only in as far as it supports that urge.

Clearer now?

No, dice rolling (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with it. What you mean is “freefrom” roleplay, which may be Nar, but may just as well be Sim. (But it is almost never found in Gamist styles, though).

There are a few very good RPGs out there that are Narrativism-focussed by design, but still involve quite some dice rolling. (Life with Master, Primetime Adventures, InSpectres, Dogs in the Vineyard… to name only a few)

The core of Narrativism is in the players’ (including the GM, if there is one) goal to create a story together.
If that story requires a setting that is consistent and believable (and most do!), then Sim elements will be included to provide that. If the story profits from an element of challenge and competition, Gamist elements are always there for the taking.

But the overruling agenda of Nar is “would it make the story better?”

If, say, spending another 20 minutes having the party climb a particularly hard-to-climb rock wall would make the adventure more dramatic, memorable, epic… or just more enjoyable… then the hardcore Narrativist will always be all for it.

If, however, the question is about spending another 20 minutes killing 15 more goblin minions (after having slaughtered dozens of them before already) before finally confronting the Big Bad of the campaign… if that is is perceived as “a waste of time” or as “not improving the drama and action of the adventure”, the Nar player will always happily skip over it.

The way you described them, no of course you won’t :wink:

But as I said, even the way I describe them, you’ll likely not find any one system that supports one of those to the full exclusion of the other two.

That’s why it (the GNS theory) is also called “the Big Model” - because all roleplaying contains elements of each. The question is merely about where the focus is.

There’s really not a lot I can do about that, now is there?

But I’m sorry if I came across as preachy or condescending, if that helps!

Then again, you know these are the internets, right… where “It remains a fact” basically means “I think so” in all relevant cases :wink:
Just like in real life, actually :mrgreen:

Well, that depends on your perspective, doesn’t it?

Prior to the quantitatively balanced encounter school of thought, there would have been no rift between verisimilitude and gamism here, because the challenge was not to defeat the dragon … it was realizing that if you’re third level, you’re probably best off finding another path to your destination than wading through the dragon-infested Swamps of Doom. Presto, simulationism and gamism happily unified (and there’s no reason why narrativism shouldn’t be as well).

(As you know, I’m not exactly the greatest devotee of GNS theory, so grain of salt and all that.)

Hello ye fearsome warriors of the editions! :slight_smile:

I have found a interesting Graph: Xp needed for level up (3.5 vs 5e)

I have yet to see lvl 5 PCs, so I’m curios what you veteran DMs think.

Hope to have a free Thursday soon, to join you guys in person!

Cheers!

okey :confused: :confused: that is wierd :open_mouth:

hehe, call 3.5 unimaginative if you like - but that the graph for 5e actually takes a dive at one point is just hilarious.

You really need less XP to go from level 11 to 12, than you needed from 10 to 11? Or please tell me I’m reading this wrong :smiley:

Since they are different versions of a game I’m not really surprised that they aren’t the same.

There are quite some interesting things about this, though.
Of course the dent with not only 12 but 13 and 14 as well being lower than 11. But I find it also interesting that the last 8 levels apparently are sort of cascading with no or big jumps in between and the first 10 appear to be almost linear.
Does the 11th level introduce some new major features for every class or something similar?

But again - without knowledge about whether the monster-xp has been adjusted to the graph - it’s hard to say anything about it.

Yeah, that’d be my question.

Xp points mean little in itself. It is the number of encounters that they represent that actually matter in term of gameplay.
Also; 5th Edition does put a bigger emphasis on story awards and so you would be gaining more exp. that way…

Seems to me that this is a relic from 4th ed. If you plot change in xp required, 4th also had a minor spike at 11 and a dip at 12, coinciding with paragon level or whatever it was called, although it was nowhere near as pronounced as this.

And yeah, it’s not a particularly pretty curve, but I wouldn’t be too concerned. It’s only an xp chart, and most of those have some kinks that never wound up bothering anyone. And again, there may indeed be a reason for the reset at 12th.

If anything, I’d be a bit worried about the flattening at level 10. That might point to a lack of attention to detail. But if it’s just an isolated oddity of the xp table, it doesn’t seem like a big deal.