Gather here, ye fearless edition warriors

I think that this highly depends on his level. On a low level I doubt that he’ll make it even close to what he hopes to retrieve when he has to rely on physical abilities.

Situationally yes. Constantly - I’m not so sure. He’d have to focus his limited resources on certain things to get his stats up high enough. And that usually only works over a short amount of time.
Also fighters aren’t just BAB + STR either.

If we’re talking about levels on which a caster can do all the things you’ve mentioned before then the fighter will have bought some nice potions and items by then to become invisible (and more) as well. :wink:

You can do that straight from level one if you pick one of the races that can see in the dark.

Heavy armor + Armor training + etc…
In my experience the fighter usually gets enough skill points for what he’s doing.

I think you’re thinking about a very specific version of fighter.
You can get a nice armor that - with armor training - will have little to no penalties at all. There also is no rule that forbids fighters to put some points in stealth or social skills.

I don’t think so to be honest. Both have their own advantages and disadvantages. In both flexibility and options.
I think in the end it all comes down to creativity. And how a player creates and plays his character.

[quote=“Thopthes”]I don’t think this is a caster vs. warrior thing. It really depends on the class(es), archetypes, feats, etc… you pick.
Which is one of the reasons why I like the system. You have so many choices and they can really make a big difference.[/quote]
Monte Cook once said, that when they designed D&D 3.0, they wanted to reward system mastery.
So that, if someone knows that ‘Toughness’ is a just a feat for NPC level 1 Warriors and should be avoided by players, he will have an advantage.
3rd Edition was also the first edition (please correct me if I am wrong), where ‘the build’ of a character became important.

… I not quite happy with those two points …

[quote=“Darthbinks”]
Monte Cook once said, that when they designed D&D 3.0, they wanted to reward system mastery.
So that, if someone knows that ‘Toughness’ is a just a feat for NPC level 1 Warriors and should be avoided by players, he will have an advantage.
3rd Edition was also the first edition (please correct me if I am wrong), where ‘the build’ of a character became important.

… I not quite happy with those two points …[/quote]
You’re not happy about having a lot of options and being able to create a better-than-average build?
I think if you want to have a caster that can do all the things you’ve mentioned before you probably will have to put some time in creating him. As well as some rulebook studying.

[quote=“Thopthes”][quote=“Darthbinks”]
All those things a wizard can do as well;
[/quote]
I think that this highly depends on his level. On a low level I doubt that he’ll make it even close to what he hopes to retrieve when he has to rely on physical abilities.[/quote]
That is why it is called Linear Fighter - Quadratic Wizard
The Wizard starts weaker but surpaces the fighter (in flexibility) later

p.s.: all those things I described in the post above; could be done by a Wizard of level 11 out of 20 levels.

[quote=“Thopthes”][quote=“Darthbinks”]
and be protected by magical shadows that conceal him, as well has having a high amount of skill points, thanks to his high Intelligence score.
[/quote]
Heavy armor + Armor training + etc…
In my experience the fighter usually gets enough skill points for what he’s doing.[/quote]
In PF ‘yes’ (although 4+ int-mod would not hurt); since you can get more class skills via ‘Traits’ or ‘Archetypes’ (see below) and you may get a favoured class bonus skill if you need one.

[quote=“Thopthes”][quote=“Darthbinks”]
A Fighter with no Hide & Sneak class-skills plus armor check penalty as well as no other social class skills except Intimidate - his options will quite limited in comparison; especially to the multitude of options a full caster has at his disposal.
[/quote]
I think you’re thinking about a very specific version of fighter.
You can get a nice armor that - with armor training - will have little to no penalties at all. There also is no rule that forbids fighters to put some points in stealth or social skills. [/quote]
In PF yes; in D&D 3.0/5 this was (almost) not possible
That’s why i wrote - in PF a Fighter can “shine”.
He even can take ‘Traits’ and get those as class skills - or take the ‘Lore Warden Archytpe’ to get more skill points (and an insane bonus on Combat Maneuvers^^), etc.

[quote=“Thopthes”][quote=“Darthbinks”]
True, but still the caster wins in flexibility and in options.
[/quote]
I don’t think so to be honest. Both have their own advantages and disadvantages. In both flexibility and options.
I think in the end it all comes down to creativity. And how a player creates and plays his character.[/quote]
Creativity is king; but I still think, that the fexibility and the options of a caster are by far greater, than those of a warrior guy.

hmm
I would prefer if a character uses his options strategically and creativily, that this should be rewarded. (maybe that is why I would prefer 4th Edition D&D^^ puring oil into the edition wars)

This is just a preference of style though.

You have to read all the wizard spells online at d20pfsrd.com/
which is, I have to admit, a lot. :confused:
(so ‘System Mastery Matters’ :mrgreen:)

I prefer simple rules like Gumshoe, Cortex plus, Technoir or some FATE variations like New Fire - but that is just my taste.
Maybe I am just a “balance-carebear”. : )

I’m just talking about PF.
Lore Warden let’s you lose the medium and heavy armor proficiency as well as shields and armor training.
That’s too high a price for me just to get some more ranks tbh.

Also there aren’t that many things that you need ranks in usually.

I guess your previous posts about fighters are partially based on what I played in KM.
Your character was the only one with a higher charisma score back then because you entered the game when we were almost through. (The fight at the castle)
Before that we burned through some characters while travelling the uncharted country. There we didn’t really need much charisma but mostly survival, hp and damage. That’s why I dumped charisma for example. I had no idea about the details of the mechanics of the 2nd part of the campaign (cause I didn’t wanna read any spoilers) so I didn’t put any points in charisma back then. Plain and simple. :mrgreen:

hmm
I would prefer if a character uses his options strategically and creativily, that this should be rewarded. (maybe that is why I would prefer 4th Edition D&D^^ puring oil into the edition wars)

This is just a preference of style though.
[/quote]
Yeah. I especially like it that you can make a lot of decisions and don’t just start as ‘class x’ and you’re exactly the same as the other guy at the table who’s playing the same class.
Strategy and creativity are things one should use. But even more so if he created his character in a way that allows him to use more of both, I think.

[quote=“Thopthes”]
(so ‘System Mastery Matters’ :mrgreen:)[/quote]
Called it ! :smiley:

[quote=“Thopthes”]I guess your previous posts about fighters are partially based on what I played in KM.
Your character was the only one with a higher charisma score back then because you entered the game when we were almost through. (The fight at the castle)
Before that we burned through some characters while travelling the uncharted country. There we didn’t really need much charisma but mostly survival, hp and damage. That’s why I dumped charisma for example. I had no idea about the details of the mechanics of the 2nd part of the campaign (cause I didn’t wanna read any spoilers) so I didn’t put any points in charisma back then. Plain and simple. :mrgreen:[/quote]
back in KM we were level 5 or 6 in the end
at those levels, the gap is not yet there.

(There was a project called ‘E6’ btw, which houseruled D&D in that way, that no charcater could rise beyond level 6, and only gets feats afterwards.)

The gap starts slowly at level ~9.

My PF group is now Level ‘14’:
It kinda works, since one of the full-casters (cleric), has a rather low caster-attribute (wisdom), so he is limited to buff/utility spells and has a lot of problems background-wise;
and the other one is a spontaneous caster (oracle of flame), who is limiting himself mostly to damage spells - fluff wise.
The third PC is a plaguebringer alchemist with a lot of damage and utility options. He is not a full-caster, but has a lot of flexibility and I can give him sidequests thanks to his concept easily. :smiling_imp:
Plus the warrior-guy is an antipaladin and (almost) all enemies in the last 1.5 years were good aligned, and a lot of them were especially vulnerable against his smite attacks.

My guess is, that you have to keep the LFQW in mind, and reajust concepts, treasure and sidequests in high levels, so that the non-casters can still have their spot light.

[quote=“Darthbinks”]
In my opinion Paizo (in PF as well in their Dragon/Dungeon magazine times) provided great inspiring artwork for the D&D/PF ruleset.[/quote]
I don’t think I’ll ever be a fan of the illustrations (nor of those found in recent versions of D&D, incidentally), if I may say so in this thread, for various reasons aesthetic and otherwise (as you say, to each their own), but yes, good point about the dwarven cleric. Thumbs up to Paizo there.

Or by Pun-Pun at 1st, just to get that out of the way.

As to system mastery, I think it’s fine (and inevitable, even in the simplest systems) to a certain degree. But when it plays too great a role, I often find myself thinking that I could just play Magic or something instead.

Didn’t he also say that in hindsight, this wasn’t the greatest idea?

Sheesh, what a thread. Er, welcome, Kas? :smiley:

Meet the Iconics: Shardra Geltl, dwarven shaman

Jop - although there is one japanese rpg, that handles a somewhat card based action-mechanic rather well.

Didn’t he also say that in hindsight, this wasn’t the greatest idea?[/quote]
I don’t know.
I can remember that the guy, who was writing the “Complete Book of Elves” for AD&D 2nd Edition back then has apologised -[part 1][part 2] - for his work. :slight_smile:
But I know nothing about Montey Cook.

Hehe - welcome Kas :smiley:

Welcome to the Forum, Kas. I hope you’ll like it around here.
Just to elaborate, this miniature variant of the ever-beloved Edition Wars ™ are a side-effect of the recent release of 5th Edition.
To the best of my knowledge, it should only be temporary.
I hope.

Of course it is only temporary, as it is only a matter of time about everybody finally realize how much better 5th edition is.
Resistance is futile.

:stuck_out_tongue:

Personally, I like all editions, with a special fondness for the last three. They all aim at something a bit different (3.Finder Pathfinder aims at being very realistic; 4th at bringing interesting and tactically challenging encounters; 5th edition at being a good starting point and making role playing a bigger focus of the game…)

Well … I agree with the last two, but the first? :confused:
In what kind of way D&D 3rd is ‘realistic’?

Very simulationist should I say?

It aims at modelling reality as accurately as possible, hence the minutiae of rules…

[quote=“Simon”]Very simulationist should I say?

It aims at modelling reality as accurately as possible, hence the minutiae of rules…[/quote]
really?
hmm I always thought about D&D 3 as a very gamistic game

for instance there is abstract tactical combat (e.g. making 5ft steps) and no wound penalty (it does not matter if you have 1hp or 100hp) aso

yep, D&D 3.finder is a very confused mix-up of gamist elements (level up power increase, the way HP work, ways to calculate challenge levels for encounters to provide [or “approximate a semblance of”] game balance etc. etc.) and simulationist elements (carrying capacity, movement and travelling speeds, difficulties for jump checks based on comparatively complex criteria of vertical or horizontal distance, etc. etc.)

There are also a very few narrativist elements mixed in, but those are few and far between. (And they are mostly outside of the rules. Half-sentences of GM advice or player suggestions that sound promising and intriguing even - but then get washed over by 280 pages of combat rules :wink: )

[quote=“Auburney”]yep, D&D 3.finder is a very confused mix-up of gamist elements …

but then get washed over by 280 pages of combat rules :wink: )[/quote]

I don’t find it confusing at all. And there are no 280 pages of combat rules that I know of either.

Well the higher/longer the jump is going to be the harder the DC should be to make it.

Note that I didn’t say “confusing”, I said “confused” :slight_smile:
The game doesn’t really know what it wants to be. Which may or may not be pardonable due to the fact that it originated before the whole GNS thing was a widely acknowledged thing :wink:
But either way, the fact remains that 3.finder is neither very well playable in full Simulationism mode, nor in full Gamism mode.

For the former, things as basic as hitpoints (no “pain” penalties for being down to 5% of my life force?? No lasting scars and cripplings?? Why do HP increase like crazy over the levels?? etc…) make no sense and will break the “immersion” and “verisimilitude” (a nice term just to avoid saying “realism” :mrgreen: ) that Simulationist players and GM like to go for.

For the latter, it sort of works (the game admittedly caters to Gamist “Step On Up to the Challenge” agendas more than to any other GNS mode). But still, play tends to get bogged down in a large number of rules apparently there mainly to “simulate realism”, and having nothing to do with challenging the players’ tactical prowess or dice-rolling luck (which would be core tenets of Gamism, though).

Sure. But that’s the Realist speaking here. That’s Simulationism.
Which isn’t a bad thing, it just is. (Which is why I included it under the examples for Simulationist rules, there)
[That I think the Simulationist approach is fundamentally flawed and rarely leads to functional play, does not intrinsically matter for this debate right now, but may hereby be mentioned anyways]

A full Gamist would probably prefer to roll for the jump according to how challenging the chasm or cliff (or whatever) is supposed to be to the party. If it is not supposed to pose a real challenge at all, why not just narrate the whole party breaking out their climbing gear and making it over eventually? Why bother to have everyone roll against a DC of 15, when it is reasonably clear that we’ll end up making it anyways, that it will not noticably deplete us of resources, and will not cost us any HP?
Just because it’s “realistic”? To the full Gamist player, that would not be a meaningful criterium.
If they see a chasm ahead, they are more likely to expect the GM posing a difficult challenge before them, one that they have to get creative, and use their resources at best they can to solve it. DC 15 chasms should not exist for such a player, from a certain level onwards. Or as soon as at least one or two members of the party have high enough Climb skills to be able and help everyone else get over it.
It would just be a waste of time, on the way to the next interesting challenge…

The Narrativist, finally, would want the DC of their chasms and cliffs to “serve the needs of the story”. Because that’s what they’re here for, an exciting story, a great adventure.
If there is [something] to be jumped over, the Narrativist GM would judge the DC for doing that according to dramatic and cineastic criteria. Is this an “establishing test” for the characters, early on in the 1st act, merely meant to showcase their respective strengths and weaknesses? Make it DC 10, perhaps.
Is this an “intermediary challenge”, somehwere in the 2nd act, meant to perhaps slow them down, or even force them to double back and seek another way forward? Perhaps to test their resolve, and/or inventiveness? A DC of anywhere between 15 and 25 might or might not be appropriate… (depending on the characters, the story, the situation, etc.)
But what if we are deep in the 3rd act, close to the Big Bad Evil Guy? Throw a chasm at the party that will stiffle their breath! An abyss for poets to compose sonnets about! Let us see them cross this gaping maw of hellish oblivion, or despair!
(Or, well, you know, just narrate “the caves are full of cliffs and chasms, but you navigate through them and over them expertly and confidently, striding only towards your ultimate goal…” and let it be good with that - all depending on the needs of the story, and your own sense of drama and that of your group)

Note that the Narrativist approach may never even mention “distances in feet and yards” (except maybe for color, as in “the gap is at least 20 meters wide, but your Monk jumps over it souverainly and unfazed”)

The Simulationist will likely begin with distances measured in [whatever increment]. (Because that is important to determine DC, because “that is how difficult it would be”, right?)

And the Gamist approach thinks first about the toughness of the challenge that should be posed by the [chasm or whatever], and then resort to feet, yards and squares, while settling for a desired DC for the jump.

Note, that none of these playstyles usually show up as “purestrain” as I described them here :slight_smile: Virtually all Actual Play features mixtures of the playstyles of course.
Also, many GMs may not even consciously be aware how and why they determine DC, distances in yards, and various dramatic considerations, while actually writing an adventure.
But it bears thinking about, imho.

Oh, and uhm, maybe a Mod or someone could move [a lot of this thread] to a more appropriate section? :mrgreen:

Yes, perhaps it might be best to take this discussion elsewhere. Or else poor Kas is goint to think he’s stumbled upon a rather insane group of people here … :smiley:

So, as Auburney requested, further discussion over here, please:

http://www.rpgvienna.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=470

(There, now I’ve fulfilled my moderator quota for the year. Back to editing Neil’s posts …)