I hope you realize, that “made aware” and “is involved” is not the same thing 
that’s why @H wrote
would be happy to hear that Neil will be there
should he show up, I def. will be there as well
sorry about that … was just that phrases like that 
were maybe a bit unlucky
OK, I feel its time to moderate this discussion a bit:
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About Neil - I did inform him and he is happy to attend. He did not confirm yet for the 22nd though. Anyone is absolutely encouraged to reach out to him personally too. I personally would love to hear his opinion and have him involved.
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@Darthbinks , I know your feelings about Verein. This thread is more about what could be done rather then what you don’t like. Lets keep it positive.
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To all - let’s not get trapped under negativity and meaningless critique. If you have an idea and can volunteer to make it happen (or help anyone else with their idea) - totally post here. If you don’t have ideas and/or don’t have time to volunteer - please don’t trash other people ideas. At this stage it is all about vision and building a team of volunteers to make some of it happen. Risk analysis and planning will come at next stage.
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he IS rpgvienna
so he MUST be
sadly it seems you don’t, so I make that clear(er):
- should you do your own Verrein for events, that’s fine … since this does not involve all of us
- should you vereins-size RPGVienna, there has to be a honest discussion about this, followed by votes … also this must involve Neil
Verein includes Vereinssitzungen/Meetings etc.
there you/we can talk about: (whoever wants to be part of it)
- democratic processes
- voting formalities
- who is eligible to vote
- charging RPGVienna members = financing the Verein
- who controls that / is in charge of that
- what to do with that money (e.g. renting your own venue)
- who decides what to do with that money
- what to do with the money, when the Verein dissolves
- who can and cannot sign (e.g. a Finanzierungsantrag)
this all has to be voted on … and not by just the people who show up at the 22nd
@SilentButDeadly
It is very sad to hear that you find all that listed above negative & meaningless
… but you/we need to have an honest discussion about this, before you start with legal stuff
I do not wish to speak for @Neil, so may the real Neil please stand up xD
I agree with what you’re saying, I apologize that my/our communication has been off.
The order of operations would be as follows:
- Have a meeting with the intent of setting a framework for Administration, Membership (at this point free) and Voting Structure
- Present a draft of the Statuten des Vereins, Mitgliedsformular, Hausordnung (which tbf, would just be Athena’s Siegel stuff printed out and passed around)
- Discuss any thoughts, concerns and ideas
- Post the Updated paperwork, have another round of edits
- Post a Final Draft, have a vote for/against
- If passed, start Vereinsgruendung
- If vetoed, edit, repeat from 3. until passed
- Run some faux votes and operations to test the system, adjust as necessary
- Finish collecting Member info
- Setup annual purge for Data Security
- Address any open security concerns
- (Some time late 2023) Have our first Vereinssitzungen/Meetings
- Present any plans from Members regarding things they want to see
- Calculate budge necessary for each idea
- Either votes in person or at a later date via Forum Polling
- Administration meeting
- How many ideas got through?
- Time frame and order to implement
- Budget? Can it be covered with:
- Quarterly events with voluntary donations
- Per visit dues
- Annual membership
- (Dec '23/Jan '24) Votes happen
- Admins implement decisions of the Verein
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I do not wish to pay wall Fridays or Saturdays, I think the best way to do things would be voluntary donations, but as Neil has said before: Donations rarely cover costs.
If the Verein votes for everything to stay the same, then it should. I like how things are right now as is, but I also think we could do more, if we were organized, unionized, one might say xD
People are paying dues at WoWkeeper, which shows people will pay dues, I’d just rather those dues go directly to improving RPGVienna (and cover Neil’s costs of the website) then disappear into the aether in another Verein.
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Haven’t had any trouble turning ideas into action so far.
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Ok, my apologies @Darthbinks I did a judgement on my part and that was not cool. I felt defensive about the idea and got carried away. Indeed, I have no idea about your actual thoughs and opinions as we never had a chance to have a proper discussion.
At this point I want to clarify some points which may not have gotten across in the way I had meant:
1. Verein
Verein-idea is very high-level at this point. It could be for whole RPG-Vienna, it could be for outreach events only or it could be for something else entirely. Each of us have our own vision and there is no set plan yet.
We first need:
a. find out if our ideas align (do we want to work together on a project)? ← We are here
b. establish working group
c. do benefit/risk analysis
d. Set a plan of action
…
2. Meeting on July 22.
The meeting is not a meeting to decide whether RPG-Vienna will turn into Verein.
The meeting (hopefully one of many) is to share ideas about what TTRPG community in Vienna could be, what we can do better, what excites us enough to spend our own time and resources for years to come. And most importanly it is a meeting to find people who share your vision.
Results of this meeting could be a formation of one or multiple groups which would then attempt to bring their vision to life.
Last but not least
If people want to talk specifics about requirements and plans for some type of Verein I would propose to make a separate theread. This way we can keep this channel for other ideas from the community.
Hope that clears some bad air that have arisen here and let us continue productive discussion.
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Oops sorry I should have replied here way before now! The guys reached out over discord and email some time back while this was all being discussed and I was even linked this post and I read it and nodded in agreement. I just missed out the actual “replying” part 
I’ll be there on the 22nd
(I’ll go back to being elusive now)
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Thanks Neil! Really looking forward meeting you in person.
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Any and all discussion about this should be welcome, even if it may come off as a bit negative. Negative opinions on something go towards bolstering and hardening your own positive opinion so it’s all a good thing.
I think the absolute main goal is the question of why we need a Verein. I think it came about originally because locations to play were becoming a bit difficult. So the idea was RPGV would have its own space to use whenever but with that comes the question of rent and who would become liable etc.
Another reason is that it would be great to a have an “official” community. I really like the idea, don’t get me wrong. but it’s a lot of work if the end result is “because it’s cool and because we can”
Another reason it came up is because of past/future events. Someone floated the idea of donations for the organizers and then things got serious! (as is always the case as soon as money is involved 
) and yeah people should be paid for their time so there should be a way to make that happen. Goodwill and appreciation is all well and good but it doesn’t pay for your rulebooks (or 40k minis in my case!)
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glad to hear that you will be there 
just a bit of input since you brought these things up:
paying organizers as part of a Verein-activity does not work
→ what would work is paying for expenses 
e.g. printing flyers/posters, buying community minis/battlemaps, forum costs, paying rent/fees
on a second positive note this has some “althoughs/buts”
… I will go over the details in person on the 22nd
and for the noble goal of getting RPGV’s own Verein-space:
as a rough estimate: we would need x10 the number of active (thus paying) members for that to comfy pull that off, and that estimate already includes the gamers playing in the gazebo 
I wholeheartedly agree that in theory that would be awesome though
- that’s not me saying these things should not be tried … just me putting it in a realistic perspective
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It would be great to work out the numbers like that - to understand if we want to do X, what does that mean - how many people would we need to have regularly coming, etc.
It would be great to both get ideas from everyone of what they want the future to look like and then to understand what needs to happen for us to get there.
One thing we might want to put some effort into is growing our own DM’s - making it easy for people joining to get started and building a deeper bench so the same few “forever DMs” are not carrying the whole thing on their shoulders.
I don’t have a genius solution, but I think it would be a no-regret move to put some effort into it.
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Thomas (aka Banjo) from the WoW Keepers here.
Firstly, as a tabletop club, we have plenty of scenery and terrrain mats at your disposal during your games. Please just return it to the places you took it before.
We also offer lockable storage solutions (eg books, miniatues etc) for a little fee.
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thanks
found that already after I posted it by chance 
maybe an option to rent a “Spind” for next year 
did that
will bring that up/with me at the 22nd
@Rayce_Kaiser @Darthbinks @Neil and anyone interested in the topic of Vereins:
I made a separate thread about Vereins - feel free to post there anything related to the Vereinisation of the community (gov. resources, pluses and minuses, ideas etc).
I will keep my OP updated to sink all the useful links there. This might come useful for later discussions.
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Neil hit it on the head here.
Vereine are work. Way too much work to take on simply because having a Verein sounds neat. Just looking at this …
… that’s an awful lot of time spent not playing games!
So far, reasons put forth for a Verein have been paying for this site and finding a place to play. I wholeheartedly support repaying Neil for his expenses (thanks, amigo!), but that doesn’t require a Verein. Just pass the hat at all games in a given week. Or make an event of it. Play Action Castle on the anniversary, ask everyone who can to throw five bucks or whatever Neil’s way, raise a glass and turn it into a party. Way more fun than simply paying dues, and no bureaucratic structure required.
As for a place to play, yes, there are spaces here that only rent to Vereine. But that seems like a bridge to be crossed if a space like that turns out to be the best option for those who want it. There are plenty of places that don’t require having a Verein. A gaming group I know found a very nice place for free, all without a Verein.
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Thank you! I wish I could be more involved in that whole thing, but there is more important stuff right now… 
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