gazebo-rpg has 6 “often attenting people”
so we could say the number of folks who turn up a lot is 22 people
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With recent conversations about code of conduct, safety officers, banning people… I honestly think that these kinds of things would need to be tasked by the community in a structured way that is minuted. While the “disciplinary / Officer” thing is the only reason I see to support building a Vereinsstruktur, I do think the thread is worth reviving - so I guess I’ll bump this topic and see if it catches on… edited for typos
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I fully agree. I’d also be in favor of a Verein. It would make organization a lot easier - safety tools and officers are just one aspect of that - as well as acquiring and maintaining a location. RPGVienna has grown so much over the last years, and instead of just being a “reserve” in case WoWKeepers is overcrowded, the Requisite is now as popula - we usually have 40 or more people playing each friday.
In case we acquire our own location, it oculd be used by private groups outside of VALUE time.
Another advantage of being a Verein is that RPGVienna could own items that all DMs and players can use. I am thinking of stuff that can’t just easily be brought to each session like dice and character sheets - I am thinking mofre about a large collection of miniatures (including bigger, more cumbersome ones like dragons you can’t easily amd safely carry around in a bag), 3D printers, terrain, digital battlemaps (screens you lie down on a table and connect to your laptop to display a VTT map on)…
Of course if we actually start a Verein, I would offer my assistance 
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My perspective, seeing as I didn’t actually weigh in last year…
I love all these ideas. I think realistically, the reason there are lots of players is because it’s easy and uncomplicated. That might change (depending on what kind of rules for non-Verein-players we’d come up with). I think it would be awesome to have a 3D printer, terrain, source books, and all that - but it kind of feels like in the beginning, and possibly forever, it would essentially be a few elected officials, a few people paying a fee, and some bylaws. Which is a lot administratively, for little return. I doubt we’d be able to afford a place to play.
I’m wondering more along the lines of existing groups. Maybe we could attach ourselves to a Verein that already exists - say, Paradice Board Games or I think there’s Athenas Siegel for german D&D? - and essentially form our own sub-group within that.
Maybe @frogemiah can also give us some insight? She has played in a successful D&D Verein in Austria (Graz I believe?) before coming to Vienna and joining us.
Also, we already have to pay a fee each day (or become a member of the WoWKeepers Verein) to play VALUE; so the change wouldn’t actually be significant.
I am a Vereinsmeier. No one needs a verein.
it’s fees and bureaucracy.
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As long as we are not in our own location, we’re going to have to keep paying a small fee to Requisite / Wow-Keepers. Just because we become a Verein doesn’t really change the way we have to pay for those locations. We are not going to find a location we can afford by let’s say 30 people paying 20 € a month (which seems like a bit much, anyway).
So would it be that Vereinsmembers pay a Vereinsfee AND a location fee? Would Vereinsmember pay less and “others” pay more? Would we find a like-minded group to go halfsies on the fees?
It’s all stuff that can be figured out if there’s a need to do it.
To me, at the moment it just feels a bit like maybe we’d be reinventing the wheel by actually starting up a Verein. The key benefit I see is the safety officer thing. I think that’s a bad reason to put up with all this work.
At WoWKeepers, it is actually either or, you don’t have to pay both a member fee and a location fee. At some other Vereine, members still pay, but a miniscule amount compared to non-members.
Also, you need to take into account that, as a Verein, we could have other ways to generate income - such as by selling snacks and drinks, events, donations, renting out our location in times we don’t need it…
(we could also cooperate with other Vereins, e.g. rent the location just for weekends, and during the week only have one room that belongs to us where we can keep all our stuff including e.g. a 3D printer and painting table).
I also think that with someone actually able to legally represent us (§5 VerG, §6 VerG), it would be much easier to organize events like Night of the Rolling Dice and to cooperate with other Vereine, and it would make RPGVienna more accessible for minors.
Also, in case there are legal disputes, the Verein itself would be the one held responsible, not individual members.
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I see it in a very similar way. It really depends on what you want or expect. For just coming to play on Friday nights… we don’t need more. Everything works just fine, and if something changes I am sure we will find a solution.
I am happy with how it is. Never change a running system. Somehow I get the feeling that this is true for many more participants, the simplicity is what’s so appealing. Maybe I am wrong, who knows.
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(having V-XP) the main problem of a Verein is
- it is work to run it
- it takes time to run it, that could be used to actually run games
- it creates hierarchy, and potential political drama
- we don’t have the numbers to generate the money to benefit from a Verein
keep in mind that the VALUE events have a high turn-over rate and that if you show up 3 times in a year, you are actually in the top half of gamers (xaosseed did a statistic about this)
… the regulars are just two handful of people
Hey! Thanks for the mention, I do however think that I’m not all too qualified to talk, because I was not involved in the running of the “Verein” itself, meaning I don’t have the sufficient insight to provide you with any real, useful arguments. (I have also only really been at RPG-Vienna for a bit over two years, so take my words with a grain of salt)
But still, I can round up a couple of things that might help shape your view and compare to our situation:
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The place I used to visit was not limited to pen & paper games, but also included tabletop games, LARP-ing, improvisation theater, J-POP culture and other similar surrounding topics. To me that implies that rather than catering to a very specific niche, (VALUE events are mostly just D&D 5e with the occasional table running a different system) it is more diversified, making more people likely to join and pay the fee that keeps the place running.
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There were very limited opening times for members to visit, so even though there was a space reserved for the Verein, with a multitude of RPG systems and other useful items, you could only access it during a limited time window, on one single day in the middle of the week. Back in the day as a high school student with a fixed schedule, that wasn’t an issue, but as an adult with responsibilities? Difficult.
Again, I never had access to the “underbelly” of the operation so I can’t tell you why that is.
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We were incredibly lucky to have incredible people in charge, persons who are all part of the community and willing to sacrifice the time to deal with the paperwork and not-so-fun parts of having your own organization. People here just aren’t willing to deal with that, and it’s totally understandable, the group of regular visitors is constantly shifting and getting members, administrating them, dealing with fees and many other things I can’t even imagine right now would be significantly more laborious and quite burdensome with so much constant change. (In comparison to a small city like Klagenfurt)
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They have connections to other organizations and there are constant collaborations, even nowadays. The RPG and Tabletop Shop? Yep, they’re associated. The youth center? Right next door. Come right on in kiddos! The situation here is just so different. We’re very independent and more importantly than anything, a forum where people get to share a common love for their interests, so insisting on creating a Verein feels like it might come between that raw joy of sharing a wonderful hobby and getting to know like-minded people.
So, although I am not strictly against the idea, i do feel like our current constellation makes a Verein incompatible. Personally I would proceed with caution before saying “yes” or “no” to the proposition. It’s not so black and white and there are many pros and cons involved. Sure, having our own space and books would be great, but is it worth the cost that comes with it? (literally and figuratively) I also believe that Neil should be involved in this conversation and decision.
Yeah, I hope my opinions are at least semi-coherent and cohesive! 
Other than that, I feel unqualified, so I’d rather stay out of the discussion, if anyone wants to chat about the topic please feel free to message me privately. 
Edit: Yikes that is an essay.
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