Well, there are certainly people here I’d trust blindly with money.
But if you want to play it safe, there are always joint accounts and the like that offer accountability without the need for a Verein.
also having a Verein does neither exempt you from dramatown nor kleptomania
anyway:
the FR-folks of RPGVienna already pay for a Verein: WOW/Keepers
either a membership-fee or a guest-fee
… really don’t see the point in having to be in two 
I agree that if you wanna run monthly (?) Nights-of-the-Rolling Dice events,
that a Verein would help you to manage expenses (e.g. for flyers) and attendance fees
… but that should be - at least in my opinion - its own thing
that being said:
anything related to RPGVienna as a whole should involve Neil
Well I was thinking more like this: they would have those materials for all paying customers to use. Essentially like a board game cafe, but for ttrpg materials.
Also @Darthbinks
saw this in 
was 
but I think here you have to open one yourself
We could ask wow keepers about that; for a bar/cafe that’s likely to space intensive and carries lots of investment risks and opportunity costs.
Getting a modular tile scenery set, even custom elements, would be easy. But keeping tabs on everything is a job in itself.
I agree that Drama Llamas and Kleptos still are a thing, the Verein is mostly about legal responsibility and having a framework reduces the risk of issues, but doesnt remove them.
e.g. Any money that is spent must be agreed upon by 2 people from the board and the Treasurer does a monthly (or quarterly) audit of expenses.
Regarding WoWkeepers, the long term goal would be to have own location/bar that we have an agreement with, but that, imo, is a 2024 goal. If folk are paying there, I wouldnt double charge.
There is lots of awesome brainstorming going on and talk like this is why a Verein is a good idea. It lets people have a mechanism to change ideas into actions.
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… but unless you do your own thing (e.g. a Night-of-the-Rolling-Dice Verein) which seems fine,
you hopefully would agree that this should involve Neil, right?
would be happy to hear that Neil will be there
should he show up, I def. will be there as well
sorry about that … was just that phrases like that 
were maybe a bit unlucky
OK, I feel its time to moderate this discussion a bit:
-
About Neil - I did inform him and he is happy to attend. He did not confirm yet for the 22nd though. Anyone is absolutely encouraged to reach out to him personally too. I personally would love to hear his opinion and have him involved.
-
@Darthbinks , I know your feelings about Verein. This thread is more about what could be done rather then what you don’t like. Lets keep it positive.
-
To all - let’s not get trapped under negativity and meaningless critique. If you have an idea and can volunteer to make it happen (or help anyone else with their idea) - totally post here. If you don’t have ideas and/or don’t have time to volunteer - please don’t trash other people ideas. At this stage it is all about vision and building a team of volunteers to make some of it happen. Risk analysis and planning will come at next stage.
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he IS rpgvienna
so he MUST be
sadly it seems you don’t, so I make that clear(er):
- should you do your own Verrein for events, that’s fine … since this does not involve all of us
- should you vereins-size RPGVienna, there has to be a honest discussion about this, followed by votes … also this must involve Neil
Verein includes Vereinssitzungen/Meetings etc.
there you/we can talk about: (whoever wants to be part of it)
- democratic processes
- voting formalities
- who is eligible to vote
- charging RPGVienna members = financing the Verein
- who controls that / is in charge of that
- what to do with that money (e.g. renting your own venue)
- who decides what to do with that money
- what to do with the money, when the Verein dissolves
- who can and cannot sign (e.g. a Finanzierungsantrag)
this all has to be voted on … and not by just the people who show up at the 22nd
@SilentButDeadly
It is very sad to hear that you find all that listed above negative & meaningless
… but you/we need to have an honest discussion about this, before you start with legal stuff
I do not wish to speak for @Neil, so may the real Neil please stand up xD
I agree with what you’re saying, I apologize that my/our communication has been off.
The order of operations would be as follows:
- Have a meeting with the intent of setting a framework for Administration, Membership (at this point free) and Voting Structure
- Present a draft of the Statuten des Vereins, Mitgliedsformular, Hausordnung (which tbf, would just be Athena’s Siegel stuff printed out and passed around)
- Discuss any thoughts, concerns and ideas
- Post the Updated paperwork, have another round of edits
- Post a Final Draft, have a vote for/against
- If passed, start Vereinsgruendung
- If vetoed, edit, repeat from 3. until passed
- Run some faux votes and operations to test the system, adjust as necessary
- Finish collecting Member info
- Setup annual purge for Data Security
- Address any open security concerns
- (Some time late 2023) Have our first Vereinssitzungen/Meetings
- Present any plans from Members regarding things they want to see
- Calculate budge necessary for each idea
- Either votes in person or at a later date via Forum Polling
- Administration meeting
- How many ideas got through?
- Time frame and order to implement
- Budget? Can it be covered with:
- Quarterly events with voluntary donations
- Per visit dues
- Annual membership
- (Dec '23/Jan '24) Votes happen
- Admins implement decisions of the Verein
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I do not wish to pay wall Fridays or Saturdays, I think the best way to do things would be voluntary donations, but as Neil has said before: Donations rarely cover costs.
If the Verein votes for everything to stay the same, then it should. I like how things are right now as is, but I also think we could do more, if we were organized, unionized, one might say xD
People are paying dues at WoWkeeper, which shows people will pay dues, I’d just rather those dues go directly to improving RPGVienna (and cover Neil’s costs of the website) then disappear into the aether in another Verein.
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Haven’t had any trouble turning ideas into action so far.
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Ok, my apologies @Darthbinks I did a judgement on my part and that was not cool. I felt defensive about the idea and got carried away. Indeed, I have no idea about your actual thoughs and opinions as we never had a chance to have a proper discussion.
At this point I want to clarify some points which may not have gotten across in the way I had meant:
1. Verein
Verein-idea is very high-level at this point. It could be for whole RPG-Vienna, it could be for outreach events only or it could be for something else entirely. Each of us have our own vision and there is no set plan yet.
We first need:
a. find out if our ideas align (do we want to work together on a project)? ← We are here
b. establish working group
c. do benefit/risk analysis
d. Set a plan of action
…
2. Meeting on July 22.
The meeting is not a meeting to decide whether RPG-Vienna will turn into Verein.
The meeting (hopefully one of many) is to share ideas about what TTRPG community in Vienna could be, what we can do better, what excites us enough to spend our own time and resources for years to come. And most importanly it is a meeting to find people who share your vision.
Results of this meeting could be a formation of one or multiple groups which would then attempt to bring their vision to life.
Last but not least
If people want to talk specifics about requirements and plans for some type of Verein I would propose to make a separate theread. This way we can keep this channel for other ideas from the community.
Hope that clears some bad air that have arisen here and let us continue productive discussion.
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Oops sorry I should have replied here way before now! The guys reached out over discord and email some time back while this was all being discussed and I was even linked this post and I read it and nodded in agreement. I just missed out the actual “replying” part 
I’ll be there on the 22nd
(I’ll go back to being elusive now)
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Thanks Neil! Really looking forward meeting you in person.
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Any and all discussion about this should be welcome, even if it may come off as a bit negative. Negative opinions on something go towards bolstering and hardening your own positive opinion so it’s all a good thing.
I think the absolute main goal is the question of why we need a Verein. I think it came about originally because locations to play were becoming a bit difficult. So the idea was RPGV would have its own space to use whenever but with that comes the question of rent and who would become liable etc.
Another reason is that it would be great to a have an “official” community. I really like the idea, don’t get me wrong. but it’s a lot of work if the end result is “because it’s cool and because we can”
Another reason it came up is because of past/future events. Someone floated the idea of donations for the organizers and then things got serious! (as is always the case as soon as money is involved 
) and yeah people should be paid for their time so there should be a way to make that happen. Goodwill and appreciation is all well and good but it doesn’t pay for your rulebooks (or 40k minis in my case!)
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