V.A.L.U.E. Season 5 - PREPLANNING - Part 2

General
1

Hi,

A couple of the regular DMs running games for V.A.L.U.E. will start discussing upcoming changes for Season 5 in the coming months.

What We Will Do (in order :point_down:):

  • collect ideas … :point_left: we are at this stage right now
  • have a regular DM meeting to talk about how to rephrase questions to a non/less-biased version
  • have a regular DM online vote with a 14 days timeframe on those questions
  • a reminder to vote will be send 7 days and again 13 days after the ability to vote went live
  • present the results
  • start the new V.A.L.U.E. Season with the new updated rules
  • at that point there will also be a Character Reset

This thread is for collecting ideas for upcoming changes

Nothing decided yet! … this is still an ongoing process

In this topic I’d like to collect your input on what we should be discussing from your point of view, so if there is any particular change you’d like to see to the V.A.L.U.E. rules, feel free to share that here. If there is something in the rules you’d like us to keep no matter what, please also share this.

Everyone’s input is welcome, but please keep in mind that only regular DMs will be able to vote, since they will have to feel the consequences the most.

If you want to include wishes regarding these topics:
:point_right: post them here, PM me, or write them in the #dm channel in RPGV’s Discord

:vulcan_salute:

2

some things that will likely be voted one will be

  • Bastions and how to implement them
  • the Syluné’s Viper spell seems broken so maybe ban it (as we banned silvery barbs in the past)?
    • this spell can auto-incapacitate boss monsters, no saving throw and no concentration
  • new potion options for the Brew Potion downtime
  • new Craft Poison downtime

Note that Bastions, the new potion options for Bew Potion and the Craft Poison downtime will al recieve a “now that I know how it looks like I rraher do not want it” option

3

I don’t know if Selune’s Viper should be banned, but it’s in a weird spot. So many things are immune against being poisoned, which negates most of the entire spell. But for the things that aren’t, it’s such a shutdown

I personally think it’s fine because there’s plenty ways to “deal” with it, but I’ve also never seen it outside the two times I used it, where it wasn’t very impactful

4

Syluné’s Viper basically forces me as a DM to make every boss monster immune to the Poisoned Condition
weakening every one who uses Poison in a non-broken way (e.g. the Assassin subclass)

also a lot of 5.5 monsters lost a lot of immunities & resistances

I want to remind you that this spell has no saving throw (so Legendary Resistance won’t work), and requires no concentration from the caster

2 Likes
5

Huh, I didn’t know so much was removed in terms of immunities. It’s also not really a healthy spell since it’s either broken or useless, so.. definitely can see more why it’s a consideration

6

I’m for either banning it or homebrewing it to require a CON save …

or to remove the attack option altogether as it would still be a 3rd level no concentration 15 temp HP spider climb spell that lasts one hour.

7

I think homebrewing spells is a bit tricky

it is easier to ban it - also helps with keeping the VALUE Rules short

that was the conclusion back then, when we had the discussion abour silvery barbs (e.g. if that spell would just only affect attack rolls, it would be fine)

2 Likes
8

the biggest thing though will be Bastions

this was suggested by @katnyx

General

  • Bastions are optional. If you choose to gain a bastion, for all intents and purposes it will be in a parallel universe that you can travel to within 5 Downtime Days (taking half the time to get there and half the time to get back).
  • Bastion Events will not take place at VALUE (unless specified by a DM)
  • Issuing Bastion Orders takes 10 Downtime Days. If there is a cost associated with an order, you must spend the gold, too.
  • You can spend gold to build and expand your bastion between adventures according to RAW.
  • You can team up with others to build bastions together.
  • Also, you can only carry one crafted or harvested item at a time (i.e 1 potion of healing from the herb garden, one poison from the laboratory, 1 bottle of magical beverage from the pub, 1 talisman from the reliquary)

Orders you can give in VALUE:

  • Craft (exception: magic items. You cannot craft magic items)
  • Harvest
  • Trade
  • If you do not give any orders, the maintain order is active.

Orders you cannot give in VALUE:

  • recruit (exception: Menagerie. You can recruit a creature for menagerie)
  • research or
  • Empower (exception: Empower theater. You can use the empower: train option using 50 downtime days)

Clarifications

  • you can have a war room, but it will not be able to recruit anything (=useless)
  • You do not get heroic inspiration from the workshop
  • Greenhouse - Fruit of Restoration: Seeing as it takes you time to travel back to your adventure, by the time you start playing, the fruit has expired

more Bastion facilities have been published after the new DMG came out

  • a few examples: Inquisitive Agency, Kundarak Vault, Red Wizard Necropolis, Spirit Vault, …

also I think the Research order and Gather Information sounds great and should be allowed

also we shoud clarify that Bastions turns do not take 7 days (as RAW) - as opposed to the purposed 10 Downtime Day cost

so RAW Bastion facilities can do the following things

  • Amethyst Dragon Den [3000 GP; 9+]
    • Psychic damage Resistance for 7 days
  • Ancient Altar [500 GP; 9+]
    • roll on a random table or get a Charm that can cast Hunger of Hadar
  • Arcane Study [1000 GP; 5+]
    • get a Charm that can cats Identify, can craft magic items
  • Archive [1000 GP; 13+]
    • get the benefits of a Legend Lore spell between adventures; gain a book that grants advantage on certain checks
  • Armory [1000 GP; 5+]
    • can spend GP to buff your Bastion’s defenses (which we do not plan to use?)
  • Artificer’s Forge [1000 GP; 13+]
    • grant magic items with charges an extra charge; craft magic items
  • Barrack [1000 GP; 5+]
    • recruit to buff your Bastion’s defenses (which we do not plan to use?)
  • Cabinet of Curiosities [500 GP; 9+]
    • buy magic items
  • Construct Forge [3000 GP; 17+]
    • get a constructs to buff your Bastion’s defenses (which we do not plan to use?)
  • Cult of the Dragon Archive [1000 GP; 13+]
    • get the benefits of a Legend Lore spell between adventures; gain Advantage on certain checks related to dragons
  • Demiplane [3000 GP; 17+]
    • gain temporary Hit Points
  • Dragonmark Outpost [1000 GP; 5+]
    • gain an extra spell slot to cast a spell from your Dragonmarked feat; gain a favor from your house
  • Emerald Enclave Grove [3000 GP; 9+]
    • get a mystical creature to buff your Bastion’s defenses (which we do not plan to use?)
  • Gaming Hall [3000 GP; 9+]
    • win random amount of GP
  • Garden [1000 GP or 3000 GP for 2x Garden; 5+]
    • get an item like antitoxin, basic poison, healing potion, or perfume
  • Greenhouse [1000G P; 9+]
    • get an item like greater potion of healing or one of various poisons
  • Guildhall [3000 GP; 17+]
    • among other things: build an air-/water-vehicle, steal an nonmagic item, get 500 GP
  • Harper Hideout [1000 GP; 5+]
    • gain proficiciency in Deception, Investigation, or Performance for 7 days
  • Infirmary [1000 GP; 9+]
    • craft antitoxins, or turn a 2 potions of healing into one greater potion of healing (or 2 greater into one superior if 13+)
  • Inquisitive Agency [1000 GP; 13+]
    • gather information
  • Kundarak Vault [500 GP; 9+]
    • sell goods for +20% than the standard price, +50% if 13+
  • Laboratory [1000 GP; 9+]
    • craft anthing craftable with alchmists supplies or various poisons
  • Library [1000 GP; 5+]
    • reserach a topic
  • Lightning Generator [1000 GP; 13+]
    • suffer 8d6 lightning damage to craft a Charm of Telekinesis; reduce the cost of Raise Dead and Resurrection spells by 100 GP; get the benefit of an Animate Objects spell for 7 days (no concentration)
  • Liminal Space [3000 GP; 17+]
    • gain a Dark Gift feat (unless you got one from this facility)
  • Lords’ Alliance Noble Residence [3000 GP; 9+]
    • have a 50% chance to invite a gossiping noble
  • Lyrandar Helm [500 GP; 13+]
    • your Bastion is an airship; can move your Bastion
  • Manifest Zone [3000 GP; 13+]
    • gain a Charm dep. on the type of manifest zone your Bastion is linked to
  • Meditation Chamber [500 GP; 13+]
    • gain Advantage on two random kinds of saving throws for the next 7 days
  • Menagerie [3000 GP; 13+]
    • get a big animal to buff your Bastion’s defenses (which we do not plan to use?)
  • Museum [1000 GP or 3000 GP; 13+]
    • gain the benefit of a Legend Lore spell; gain a Charm dep. on the type of ancient item your museum is linked to (grants 1-2 languages and a spell)
  • Navigator’s Helm [500 GP; 9+]
    • your bastion is a waterbound vehicle; can travel
  • Observatory [1000 GP; 13+]
    • gain a Charm to cast Contact Other Plane, or 3x Darkvision, or works as a potion of heroism or vitality
  • Order of the Gauntlet Tournament Field [3000 GP; 9+]
    • spend 1000 GP to gain renown within the Order of the Gauntlet
  • Orien Helm [500 GP; 9+]
    • your bastion is a train; can travel
  • Pub [1000 GP or 3000 GP; 13+]
    • gather information; gain a magic bewerage that works as a potion (enlarge/reduce, spider climb, Necrotic resistance, or Frightened immunity) … the bewerage works for 24h
  • Red Wizard Necropolis [1000 GP; 5+]
    • get undead to buff your Bastion’s defenses (which we do not plan to use?)
  • Reliquary [500 GP; 13+]
    • get a Charm of Greater Restoration; craft a talisman that can be used instead of a Material Component of a spell up to 1000 GP … the talisman is not consumed even if the Material Component would be
  • Rookery [500 GP; 5+]
    • gain a mist talisman linked to a Domain of Dread; send a messanger raven
  • Sacristy [1000 GP; 9+]
    • create holy water or a magic item (only relics)
  • Sanctuary [1000 GP; 5+]
    • get a Charm of Healing Word or a druidic focus or a holy symbol
  • Sanctum [1000 GP; 17+]
    • get a Charm of Heal; get temporary Hit Points; get the Word of Recall spell to your Bastion
  • Scriptorium [1000 GP; 9+]
    • get a spell scroll of a Cleric or Wizard spell of 3rd level or lower; create pamphlets for 1 GP a piece
  • Smithy [1000 GP; 5+]
    • craft anything craftable with smith’s tools; (if level 9+: craft magic weapons & armor)
  • Spirit Vault [1000 GP; 13+]
    • get a Charm or Dispel Evil & Good / Remove Cirse or Hex (level 3) / Bestow Curse; roll d6: 1: get 6d6 Psychic damage, 2-5: get the benefit of a Contact Other Plain spell
  • Stable [1000 GP or 3000 GP to hold more mounts; 9+]
    • get mounts; sell mounts for +20% than the standard price, +50% if 13+
  • Storehouse [1000 GP; 5+]
    • sell goods for +10% than the standard price, +20% if 9+; +50% if 13+; buy nonmagical items
  • Séance Parlor [500 GP; 5+]
    • gain Heroic Inspiration; cast Speak With Dead between advantures
  • Teleportation Circle [1000 GP; 9+]
    • let a Wizard spell of 4th level or lower be cast on you; 8th level or lower if 17+
  • Theater [3000 GP; 9+]
    • succed on a Performance (Charisma) DC 15 check to get a d6 (Bardic) Inspiration die that lasts until you use it or get another one; d8 if 13+, d10 if 17+
  • Training Area [3000 GP; 9+]
    • gain Proficiency in Acrobatics, Athletics, Performance, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, a tool of your choice, a simple or martial weapon or the ability to reduce damage from a weapon or Unarmed Strike by 1d4 as a Reaction for 7 days
  • Trophy Room [1000 GP; 9+]
    • gain a random Common magic item; research a topic
  • War Room [3000 GP; 17+]
    • recruit soldiers to buff your Bastion’s defenses (which we do not plan to use?)
  • Workship [1000 GP 6 tools or 3000 GP for 9 tools; 5+]
    • gain Heroic Inspiration; choose 6 or 9 artisan tools: craft anything craftable with those tools; craft magic item (implements only)
  • Zhentarim Travel Station [3000 GP; 5+]
    • increase your group’s maximum travel pace by one step (from Slow to Normal or from Normal to Fast); gain Advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to forage or navigate for 7 days.

note that I did not add prerequisites yet, except the level

(hope I did not forget anything :see_no_evil_monkey:)

edit x2: spelling & added the GP costs

2 Likes
9

Just from a quick glance, my only worry is that let’s say you want to run a one-shot where your players have to cross a sea and a lvl 9 player shows up to the one-shot with a ship bastion xD

It deffo opens up a lot of variables for a DM to take into account into, and I wonder if that also doesn’t put our general “we don’t keep track of stuff, we trust you to not lie about your character” approach to quite the test :see_no_evil_monkey:

1 Like
10

yes that’s why we have to talk about what parts of the Bastion rules we do allow :+1:

and how we exactly implement it

1 Like
11

First, since we voted that characters of one player share a bastion, we need some rules on how bastion benefits or gained items/gold/perks affect characters. Do all get the specific perk? Do they share one instance of an item and can swap it around?

okay then my opinion on the facilities, if I don’t say anything, I deem it to be fine as is.

CLICK FOR WALL OF TEXT

All of those, yeah those make no sense to allow.

There’s a few that grant spell uses for “between adventures”, ofc that doesn’t really work for our system. Maybe allow those to grant the spell as single cast during an adventure? For example there’s one that grants Speak with Dead.

This interacts with the Ravenloft “haunted” Bastion thing. I feel it is a bit too complicated at first glance? There are also other facilites that interact with Ravenloft domains or the Mists … difficult to implement.

This and other Eberron facilities heavily interact with Eberron-setting specific things and character options, if we want to restrict those from adventures that aren’t set in Eberron, we should restrict these facilities too. In general facilities that give you reputation with factions are very hard to implement in a one-shot.

This obviously is very easy to “fudge”, then again the max possible win is 600 gold per week, which at lvl 9 isn’t exactly a lot lot.

A bit hard to implement in a meaningful way on open tables.

the lightning damage is impossible to implement, as our characters don’t have HP between adventures. the rest is fine

Impossible to implement

I would say we ban moving Bastions and say Bastions exist in an extradimensional space your characters can travel to and from between adventures, but you can’t “bring” your Bastion to an adventure, movable or not.

Seems fine, the check should be done at the beginning of a session, same as we handle portent dice daily rolls

Fine but can be useless on many tables unless specifically a one-shot involving lots of travel.

Oh and thanks for the list!

12

tbf you could just give your bosses immunity to the incapacitated condition, that way to would count as poisoned but ignore the disabling part of the spell

13

if I homebrew a boss monster that will work :+1:

If a DM uses an official dragon statblock, they “have to” use a Green Dragon, since all other dragons can be stun locked (no matter how many Legendary Resuistances they might have).

continuing Bastions

I think giving players teh option to have a swimming (etc) Bastion is nice - even it is only for flair

def. a good idea to phrase our rules (as katnyx suggested) that we do not allow

  • henchmen, guards, monsters that are ment to defende your Bastion
  • the creation of magic items

but still leaves a lot

  • Heroic Inspiration
  • Advantage on a saving throw
  • Psychic damage resistance
  • proficiency in a skill or tool
  • various Charms ( = one time use magic trinkets)
  • Legend Lore before the next adventure
  • advantage on various checks regarding Dragons
  • research a topic
  • gather information
  • a spell slot to cats Dragonmark spells
  • sell nonmagical items for higher value (the base sell value is 50%)
  • once save up to 1000 GP in material components for a spell
  • buff party travel speed
  • let a 1st-4th level spell be cast on you
  • magic potion / bewerage

:backhand_index_pointing_up: some of them have quite restrictive prerequisites (e.g. a certain Background or Feat or class sfeature)

we should also talk about if we restrict setting specific features
meaning:

  • do we allow Faerûn-Faction backgrounds & feats [from Faerûn] ?
  • do we allow Dragonmark backgrounds & feats [from Eberron] ?
  • do we allow Dark Gift backgrounds & feats [from Ravenloft] ?

or do we only allow them when a DM states that they are running e.g. an Eberron game
→ which will turn those into Homebrew stuff taht would only apply to that DM’s table

I am pretty sure an upcoming setting book (likely Dark Sun) will also have setting spec. features (incl. backgrounds, feats, and bastions)

:thinking:

14

Sure, but always having to think of that just coz of a third level spell is a bit annoying.

Plus, I personally don’t mind my bosses being susceptible to incapacitation and am fine if my players find ways to achieve that … I just don’t want it to be an auto-incapacitate on hit by 3rd level spell xD

As far as I could see the max you can create is uncommon magic items even at level 9, which means you’re usually worse off than what’s dropped at T2 … and at T1 you can’t even use the bastion anyways. Seeing how we voted to allow dropping up to 4-6 magic items by DMs per adventure I don’t think allowing the crafting of uncommon items is gonna be a big issue. Players will still strive for the rare item drops by DMs.

If we say we only allow “Backgrounds that allow picking an Origin feat”, then you don’t allow those from Eberron that depends on Dragonmarks and give Dragonmark feats (all those “House” ones) and those from Ravenloft that ONLY give Dark Gift feats. But both of these settings also have a few backgrounds that allow picking an Origin feat. Coincidentally that leaves you mostly with stuffs like “Investigator” (RHW) that are mostly setting agnostic anyways.

Faerûn’s backgrounds reference Harpers, Zhentarim etc, but I think they are very easy to make setting-agnostic when on a table not set in Faerûn: If a player is a “Chondathan Freebooter” it is easy enough to mostly treat him as sailor, same with the Zhentarim Mercenary just being a mercenary and even the “Spellfire Initiate” can just be someone who has an innate connection with nature of magic (rather than specifically the Weave).

The handful from Astarion’s Book of Hunger are mostly Vampire themed and setting agnostic.

The two from Lorwyn essentially just say “you’re from this part of Lorwyn”, so even in a Lorwyn setting they wouldn’t mean all that much :person_shrugging:

So to sum it up: Backgrounds that give Origin Feats, unlike those that give different types of feats, don’t fundamentally affect the game balance and are easy to treat in an agnostic way for the most part, so I would allow them, no matter what the source/setting is.

Another thing to keep in mind when restricting Backgrounds (that give Origin Feats), is that this also means nerfing the versatility of Warlocks, as they can freely pick, match and swap Origin Feats as invocations and that can play a huge role in their versatility and “fun-ness” So cutting those unproportionally affects Warlocks.

15

that is a neat idea to rule, if someone does not like Dark Gift or Dragonmak feats to work on all tables :slight_smile:

1 Like
16

I’m trying to find time to talk a bit more about the bastions because I feel like I kind of championed this and I know I won’t be there for the question session, but maybe as a bit of a primer:

To me, the bastions are a downtime activity that helps players engage with their characters, spend downtime days, and spend some gold (since at higher tiers there usually was too much of it). To me, bastions are not intended as ways to contribute to the game actively unless the DM specifies that at their table, it does.

For example: You can brew potions as a downtime activity. BUT if you want to be elaborate and think about it in more deetail, you don’t mentally spend downtime days and add potion to your inventory, you create an imaginary brewery where you can craft those potions.

No DM should be put in a position where whatever players bring to the table from a bastion can put the adventure on a completely different path. At the same time, no players should be in a position where they prepare for something that a DM says no to at the table.

I would argue that for the most part, my “original” post about what you can and cannot do - the Vanilla DM guide version - can still serve as a ruleset. Anything else will likely not be relevant at VALUE tables anyway and if DMs want to allow that, they can always specifically allow it for their tables.

My wording (but again, I have yet to properly read the new additions) would be something like:

You can build any officially licensed bastion facility. However, you can only issue the following orders at regular VALUE tables: (…).

Is there a ship bastion? Did I miss that? I want it. :smiley: I guess a bastion could be anything! But yeah. So the way I phrased my thoughts originally, the bastions are physically not accessible during a game - it takes downtime to travel there and downtime to travel back, so unless a DM specifies that something is on the plane of bastions (which could be fun!) that wouldn’t happen. Also, because it takes downtime days (though whether it should be 5, 7, or 10 I guess is a different question) some of the effects granted by bastion orders that expire after a certain time are not relevant, either.

17

:backhand_index_pointing_right: Navigator’s Helm [500 GP; 9+]; it is in Eberron: Forge of the Artificer page 51

There is also a train and an airship Bastion in the same book as well, but those have “House Orien / Lyrandar reknown” requirements.

all 5.5 setting books published so far had additonal Bastions
… I only noticed it when I made the list above

1 Like
18

So I got into reading and I still think the original idea holds with some very minor adjustments.

This would be my new phrasing after reading through all the options.

I’m also attaching a google doc that has my detailed analysis of the individual bastions in the second sheet if anyone is interested.

Optional Rule: Bastions

In DnD 2024, characters who reach level 5 can have a bastion as a base. Bastions serve as an additional way to world-build and roleplay for your character.

Because all our VALUE games take place in different realms, some adjustments are made to the way Bastions work in our ruleset.

  • All bastions are in the Bastion Plane. Traveling to and from this plane takes 7 (10?) Downtime Days each way (so 14 (20?) for a return trip) and is not possible within an adventure.
  • While you can build any bastion with the exception of teleportation circle available by spending the gold it costs to build that bastion, note that the orders you can give and effects of those bastions are limited:
    • Seeing as you are using downtime days to travel to your bastion between adventures, anything that gives you a benefit after spending time there (e.g. the research order or facility effects that occur naturally) will not work with information relevant to your VALUE game unless specified by the DM.
    • Anything that has an expiration time (e.g. charms that last for 7 days) will have expired by the time your adventure begins.
    • The only bastion facility you cannot build is the teleportation circle, as this does not work with spending downtime days to get there.
  • Bastion events will not take place at VALUE unless specified by a DM.
  • All your characters can share one bastion. You can even team up with other players to share bastions with them.
  • Any and all VALUE carry limits regarding magic items and consumables apply. Bastion items are part of your carry limits, not added on to your carry limits.
  • If a Bastion has a prerequisite of a specific group or adventure (e.g. member of the Emerald Enclave) the benefit can only be used in settings where the DM specifies it.

Orders you can give using downtime in VALUE:

  • Craft (exception: magic items. You cannot craft magic items) (Note: Or maybe you can craft magic items that correspond to the tier the character is currently in and no more than once per character)
  • Harvest
  • Trade
  • If you do not give any orders, the maintain order is active.

Orders you cannot give in VALUE:

  • Recruit (exception: Menagerie. You can recruit a creature for menagerie)
  • Research (because your character is not physically in the bastion during the adventure and therefore cannot use these facilities) or
  • Empower (exception: Empower theater. You can use the empower: train option using 50 downtime days)

Note on orders: Newer books often add on bastion types that specify or draw on the original Bastion orders. Since all these are based on the original orders, the original order applies.

For example:

The Research Order is not allowed. The Bastion “Zhentarim Travel Station” offers “Research: Reconnaissance” as an order. Because Research is not allowed, Research: Reconnaissance is also not allowed.

In short, I think the idea is not to manage every little bit of a bastion, like limiting exactly which backgrounds we allow or don’t and so on - this will not be manageable in the long run, as new things will keep coming out. But the basic orders that define bastion settings (trade, harvest, research, recruit, empower, craft) are a part of all bastions in the published books and can be used to create a framework that will serve us in the long run.

19

I read through your list just looking for “ship” alphabetically and didn’t see it but yeah xD

20

Combining bastions into a single structure is an option RAW, but according to the DMG this does not change how bastion turns are taken (or how big a bastion can be), it simply means that instead of two cramped bastions on neighboring properties you have two cramped bastions on the same property (connected by a door) where both facilities are usable by both people (assuming two players or characters are sharing a bastion). I think it makes sense not to deviate from this.

Since technically Bastion orders take turns and turns are character specific, I think the question on how they interact is answered. If my PC orders a hireling to craft a book, it remains in my bastion “until I claim it”. This doesn’t mean that the same hirelings can’t craft multiple books, just that my book is mine and someone else’s isn’t. And if we want to swap or share, we have rules on how to that works as part of VALUE regular rules.