A Comprehensive Treatise on Simulationism in RPGs

That’s the problem, all these concepts are so badly defined that everybody has their own ideas about what all this means. Edwards himself is highly inconsistent, going from the open-ended “results in a good story” to an extremely narrow interpretation limited to very specific methods and themes. It’s no wonder these discussions often turn out the way they do.

As to your example, I’d call asking “what do you do next?” with a myriad of available options (not limited to those foreseen by the DM) a highly simulationist thing. You’re simulating the free will the characters actually would have. What could be more simulationist than that?

Preordained events, on the other hand, for the purpose of a good story? Now that’s narrativism … :wink:

Well … if you put it that way everything is narrativistic, simulationionist and gamistic at the same time : P

Is it a Game? -> G
Does someone Tell something? -> N
Are there Rules?-> S

That is pretty pointless imo

I think the GNS should be seen as:

Are there rules that directly affect the story (as opposed to rules that affect your character)?
(this causes the so called “Player empowerment”)
-> This is a Narrativistic aspect of this particular RPG.
e.g. Fate points to change the Setting (FATE; were you can spend points and/or vor as a player to give Aspects to places), or the storytelling/dice resolution in New Fire.

Rules that favour Gamism create their own tactics, out of their “unrealistic” (not that this is bad) game-mechanics
e.g. having no wound penalties in D&D both put new tactics to the rpg battlefield (e.g. focusing to bring down one enemy after the other, because an enemy with 1hp is as operational as one with 101hp)
… another example would be the 5ft steps, they introduced in 3rd Edition

Rules that favor Simulationism are when they try to make it ‘feel’ realistic: Shadowrun 5 has rules for ‘recoil’*, has several types of wounds, and even has wound penalties; or GURPS when you shoot at a target the damage will be multiplied before and after the armor, depending on your ammunition and on the body part;

Simulationism is also if the Rules try to simulate a certain aspect of their game-world (getting slowly corrupted by ‘dark forces’ in Warhammer (40K) and L5R), even when those things it tries to simulate are not part of our real world.^^

… plus as Auburney already pointed out, there is no pure G, N or S game.

* we didn’t use them in Chylli’s One Shot

true that! :smiley:

[quote]You’re simulating the free will the characters actually would have. What could be more simulationist than that?

Preordained events, on the other hand, for the purpose of a good story? Now that’s narrativism …[/quote]
i see what you did there :wink:

So yeah, I think “purpose” is the key word here - which renders the theory all but useless in practice, of course, as one can always guess, but never tell for sure, who might have what purpose (either in playing a game, or running it in a certain way, or writing its rules, etc.)

Darth, good examples all. :slight_smile:

Allow me to nitpick them a little: :smiley:

I would rephrase this as "are there rules that allow the player to directly affect the story. But you example makes this clear anyway, so minor nitpicking in this case…

Of course, I can already -H- responding with something along the lines of “yeah sure D&D has rules that allow me as a player to directly affect the story - I kill this NPC here with my sword. Doesn’t that immediately and very effectively ‘affect the story’?” :smiley:

But I know what you mean, of course :wink:

Also, nice example with the Gamist D&D “focus 'em down” tactics. And I fully agree with the “Simulationism can also simulate completely unrealistic things” (CoC Sanity tracks, anyone?) :slight_smile:

[quote=“Auburney”]Allow me to nitpick them a little: :smiley:

I would rephrase this as "are there rules that allow the player to directly affect the story. But you example makes this clear anyway, so minor nitpicking in this case…[/quote]
not only …

Black Crusade (WH40) has the Complications rule, where the gamemaster can modify the story secretly once at the beginning of the game.
That of course targets printed adventures (the most), but still - it is a Rule for a non-player, which affects the story, instead of providing a mechanical modification; … this might be necessary, because Black Crusade adventures are pretty pro-active - dunno …

[quote=“Auburney”]Of course, I can already -H- responding with something along the lines of “yeah sure D&D has rules that allow me as a player to directly affect the story - I kill this NPC here with my sword. Doesn’t that immediately and very effectively ‘affect the story’?” :smiley:
But I know what you mean, of course :wink:[/quote]
That is why I wrote: Has this RPG rules? -> so it must be Sim; RPG has Game in its title, so it must be Gam … everything would be G+N+S, if you put it that way - even Mensch ärgere dich nicht.

Another Gamist-tactics example would be the 5ft steps in D&D 3+ (Basketball anyone?); this also generates a lot of tactics … or some Japanese RPGs (we still have to play those^^), were you get Wound boni instead of penalties.

Didn’t have a chance to reply to this earlier, but since I was summoned …

Wouldn’t that mean that all rules favor gamism? All rules create their own tactics. Heck, even the H engine creates its own tactics.

I agree with what you’re saying, but I’m not so sure about this example. I’m probably going against the consensus once again, but I’ve always felt that level of detail and realism are two separate things.

[quote=“Auburney”][quote]You’re simulating the free will the characters actually would have. What could be more simulationist than that?

Preordained events, on the other hand, for the purpose of a good story? Now that’s narrativism …[/quote]
i see what you did there :wink:[/quote]
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not turning this around just to mess with you. But story did enter RPGs in a serious way hand in hand with preordained events, at the cost of free will, which I think is interesting.

Actually, I’d say that D&D (pre-1984) didn’t need rules to affect the story. :wink:

I’ll appropriate this basketball reference to share my favorite anecdote about simulationism vs. gamism:

In sports games, a genre where simulationism really does exist in a big way, there was a long-running debate about something called the rubberband effect. This was a mechanism designed to keep games close and exciting. If a team was behind by a score of 20-40, this effect would give the trailing team an easier chance to score, while things would get more difficult for the team in the lead, leading to closer scores with the winner in doubt until the end.

I’m not much of a video gamer, but apparently this was quite a hot topic. The gamists embraced this mechanism, because a 20-40 game where the lead continues to widen is boring. They wanted that 20-40 score to evolve into 58-60. They wanted an exciting game. (Using its very broad definition, you could even consider this narrativism, since a tight contest with lead changes is a better story than one where the winner is apparent early.)

The simuationists, of course, disagreed. They wanted the better team to continue to be better, because anything else would be unrealistic. So what if the game is decided before halftime - it’s the realism that counts. The gap between a superior team and its opponent shouldn’t tighten, but continue to widen.

That’s about as clear-cut a divide between these two schools of thought as you can come up with. Both sides had clear preferences for their games, and never the twain shall meet.

But then a funny thing happened. Statistical analysis showed that the rubberband effect is actually something real, and that for various reasons, the scores of basketball games really are likely to converge.

In other words, simulationism and gamism turned out to be the same thing. Or putting it another way, perhaps the universe is actually gamist.

That’s arguably true. As soon as there are rules, you can try to “game” them. (Provided there is choice, of course, which is for example minimal in Mensch Ärgere Dich Nicht, but extremely plentiful in some RPGs. But then again, with no choice at all, do you even have a game?)

Gamism-heavy rules, however, or Gamism-focussed games, would provide more than that. They would strive to intentionally make their rules so that competitive (or at least efficiency-focussed) play is enabled and supported by the rules and the options and choices they open up.

In this light, I would modify the above statement to “all rules enable gamism”.
Gamist-focussed rules, however, encourage or even demand it. (Cf. most board games)

[quote]

I agree with what you’re saying, but I’m not so sure about this example. I’m probably going against the consensus once again, but I’ve always felt that level of detail and realism are two separate things.[/quote]
All the best rules try to elegantly bridge the gap between simulation and gamism, I think.

So sure, the “recoil” thing provides for believability and realism. But it can also serve to balance different weapons against each other, make different combat actions (single shot, short burst, full auto fire) viable in different situations, and even balance different character concepts against each other.

@ level of detail vs. realism:
Sure thing, you can have very detailed rules for magic spell casting, and that’s by no means “realistic” in any conceivable way, shape, or form.

Also, you can have extremely detailed combat which is at the same time utterly unrealistic, perhaps even in its basic assumptions.
(D&D anyone? Started out as a simple, “well we have to roll something for when we fight in an RPG” system, went on to become much more complex and detailed… but still never changed some of its underlying principles and assumptions. Anyone who has actually been in a fight (unarmed or otherwise) knows that its really not about hit points, and also that AC is a highly abstracted and essentially dubious concept)
[Note I’m not bashing the system as such. I’m just denying it any claims to “realism” in its combat mechanics :wink: ]

Hm, but for the other way around… can anyone think of examples for rules that are very simple, but very realistic at the same time?
They probably exist, but I can’t think of any right now…

That’s an interesting observation indeed.
And I think it leads us to the core of many misunderstandings about “story” in RPGs.

See, there’s (at least) two ways you could define “story”, especially in an RPG.

  • the stuff that happens because people (players) do things and the environment (DM) reacts and, yeah well, stuff happens. Producing story, right?

  • an “authored” (or preordained, or railroaded) story previously conceived by the DM, with a few “forks” where PCs can make decisions that will influence the outcome, but basically a predetermined road to success / adventure path / short story / whatever…

I’ll assume that the first of these has always happened in RPGs. That doesn’t need rules, it just happens. Whether it necessarily produces story of “good literary/narrative quality” is a different question, but it does produce (some kind of) story. Because events happened and then people did things and then other events happened.

The second version of story may have arisen out of a desire to more closely emulate our hobby’s source material (mostly books, by Tolkien, Howard, Vance, Moorcock, you name 'em…)
By that time, I imagine a solid assumption of “the DM being the one in power over the game world” combined with “the players being along for the ride / trying to survive the experience” was firmly in place in the hobby and its community.

It seems therefore only natural that things developed like they did - premade adventure modules, homebrew railroad fests, scripted scenarios, etc. became the height of what GMs the world over strived for and found to be “good Roleplaying ™”

Now, perhaps sadly (for some), more and more of us post-modern assholes of players have become interested in tearing down that hierarchy between DM and players, questioning, at first timidly, then more fiercely, the authority over “The Story ™” held by one person at the table at the expense of all other participants’ chance to contribute their own ideas to it.

Participationism stopped being good enough, and hard railroad began getting rejected with increasing vehemency as well.

We are your players and we want our say in that game that we are part of. This is Democracy!
Remember that, without us, you wouldn’t even have a game…

Revolutionary pep-talk aside, though :wink: Several movements have arisen to adress these points.
I think perhaps the central question of most of them was: “how can we have good story, but without it being in the hands of only one person at the table?”

A good question, and a hard one too, as anybody who has ever attempted to co-author anything (a story, a game, whatever) with someone else will know. It becomes harder the more people are involved, even with the planning time, and the option to go back and forth that e.g. writing a novel affords you. How much harder must it be in the “impromptu” environment of an RPG, then?

Some game writers have tried to solve this with elaborate rules, intended to provide a framework for improvised cooperative storytelling.
(City of Birds, My Life with Master, Primetime Adventures…)

Others have steered closer to the traditional RPG formula (or the various formulae), but added Benny points, Action points, or some other player resource for spontaneous (but guided, i.e. limited) intervention / contribution.
(I have never played many of these, but I think Mouse Guard falls here, also D&D 4 had Action Points, and Star Wars Edge of the Empire also gives players a lot of input…)

Finally (perhaps?), a third group has decided to return to more old-school ways of handling it. So called “Retro Clones” used to be all the rage for a couple years (and maybe still are? No idea tbh).
Arguably, a part of their appeal is also to do with “story” in some way, shape or form…

Does that answer the question? Was there even a question? Will we ever find out what the One True Way of RPGing is?

I guess I doubt it :mrgreen:

In an attempt to resist the lure of the dark side (and I have to admit you folks are awfully presuasive) and also provide Auburney with an RPG fix while he’s over at the Frankenstein place …

That’s arguably true. As soon as there are rules, you can try to “game” them. (Provided there is choice, of course, which is for example minimal in Mensch Ärgere Dich Nicht, but extremely plentiful in some RPGs. But then again, with no choice at all, do you even have a game?)

Gamism-heavy rules, however, or Gamism-focussed games, would provide more than that. They would strive to intentionally make their rules so that competitive (or at least efficiency-focussed) play is enabled and supported by the rules and the options and choices they open up.

In this light, I would modify the above statement to “all rules enable gamism”.
Gamist-focussed rules, however, encourage or even demand it. (Cf. most board games)[/quote]
First off, I do think you can have games without choice. Chutes & Ladders is clearly a game to me - in fact, in some ways it could even be seen as more of a game than something like chess or go, because I think an uncertain outcome is part of what makes something a game. But that’s just my definition, and I certainly won’t disagree if you include decision-making in yours.

But going back to the original topic, how exactly do these rules encourage or demand gamism? I know this idea is pretty much at the heart of indie theory, but I think it’s a bit of a fallacy.

(Must … resist … the dark side. And you’re not my father!)

Board games are a great example. They encourage gamism in just one way: by including a victory condition. That’s it. Chess is exactly as gamist as Uno. No more, no less. The idea that rules can encourage gamism to a greater or lesser degree doesn’t really hold up to closer scrutiny.

Role-playing games are no different, except that victory conditions usually aren’t even provided by the game. Far more often, it’s the scenario that does so, although ultimately, it’s the players who set their own goals (and even decide whether there are goals at all). But it’s always the presence of a victory condition that encourages gamism, not any intricacies of the rules. D&D isn’t inherently more gamist than Fate. Rules can support different kinds of gamism, such as tactics or resource management or puzzle solving, just as board games do, but that’s it.

[quote]Hm, but for the other way around… can anyone think of examples for rules that are very simple, but very realistic at the same time?
They probably exist, but I can’t think of any right now…[/quote]
“Highest skill wins” is probably more realistic for many things than the more complicated rules most systems give us, just as an example.